World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria

[xann]

Pandas! .... anyone even remotely interested? :p

[eKo]

Nope, haven't played WoW since SWTOR came out (even though I now quit playing SWTOR). Don't like the direction Blizzard is going with WoW, which seems to be to make everything easier (see the upcoming talent revamp) and seemingly even aimed at kids (Kung Fu pandas). Cancelled both my WoW and SWTOR subs, so it looks like I won't be playing an MMO for the first time in years. Oh well, replaying ME1, 2 & 3 and Diablo 3 comes out on May 15, so I'll be able to keep myself busy anyway .

[Lasiien]

When we were playing SWTOR eko told me about this. I've some respect for the way the wow lore just pillages whatever they fancy and I always thought they kinda made it work (or made good humour out of it). But Pandas? Bleh......as eko said, a bit too much aimed at the kids?

[Cernos]

Nah, I'm done with WoW. Not really that bothered about the pandas, the game has always plunderd popular culture although this is probably a step too far. I just don't like the direction they've taken the game overall. I enjoyed my time playing it but each subsequent xpack held my attention less and less, to the point where I lasted just a month with the last xpack.

I'm undecided what to do about SWTOR. I took a subs break to play ME3 and now can't decide if I wish to resub or not. What made you stop playing eKo & Las?

[eKo]

For me it was both the lack of things to do at 50 (except grinding for gear whether PvE or PvP) and the lack of a decent LFG tool. I've always liked to mix levelling with doing instances, but I found the later instances impossible to do on my Smuggler. It also lacks a social side to it tbh, outside of questing/flashpoints/warzones there's hardly anything to do (though that's the same in WoW), so it's hard to do anything together with friends/guildies. If my account is still active when patch 1.2 comes out I'll have a look, though it doesn't seem to alleviate any of my complaints (and nerfs my smuggler even more).

[Lasiien]

I went on hold to play Mass Effect like you Cern (I still am playing ME3). I suspect I probably will re-sub or play for free if they invite us to come back etc. (to complete my Gunslinger and prolly try something empire). Though i guess as eko is saying I view it pretty much as a single player game, all the stuff we've talked about before really.I found even trying to group very difficult, and whilst I hate forced grouping (e.g. EQ2) I felt SWTOR didn't really try hard enough to at least get everyone together to do the flashpoints.

[Cernos]

I share your feelings on SWTOR. As a single player game it's excellent. As a MMO it is at best mediocre. It doesn't help that my two level 50s (Sorc and Powertech) are both getting the nerf stick firmly up their rears in 1.2, but that's not the reason I've wobbled about resubbing. It just doesn't have enough social aspects to make it a true MMO and I don't want to pay monthly for a single player experience. I'm in a nice guild with friendly people who do try hard to do things together. There just aren't enough things we *can* do together because of the way the game is designed. Nothing in 1.2 will change this, although nerfs and terrible WoW-style armour designs aside, most of what 1.2 brings is welcome. But it doesn't help tackle the fundamental issues, things like LFG, dual spec, endgame streamlining, PvP issues etc.

[Lasiien]

Yup its a shame really. I didn't read too deeply but i think EA took one of their guys from WAR! so that SWTOR would learn some lessons. I think perhaps WAR got burnt by allot of 'it's not WoW' feedback and maybe they just over-reacted too much. I dunno really where the genre is going now, too many are burnt out by the 'groundhog day' that is an MMO endgame....perhaps something will come along that manages to keep us interested long term that doesn't mean a grindfest but I don't hold out many hopes. I think they'll prolly just try to get to the consoles soon with something dumbed down but similar, as if you hit that market it truly would make a shitload of cash?

[Cernos]

Until the genre gets past the trying / expecting to copy WoW's success I can only see a steady decline. The men in suits want a big return for their investment dollars and this has a negative impact on the gaming experience, they want only to milk the player base. I think history will show that WoW's success was a one-of thing, it arrived at a time when the mass market was ready for it and Blizzard's name ensured it had momentum. I don't see it being repeated and everyone needs to stop trying.

Perhaps it is for the best if the genre dies back a bit, then some smaller independent studios can get into the market and produce some titles with a more limited scope but better gameplay, based around a single server design. A good model for this is EVE. The game itself isn't my cup of tea, I tried it and couldn't get into it, but I admire how they've built up and retained a relatively small but totally loyal player base that allows the developers to make sufficient money to keep pushing the game forward. We need more games operating on this basis, rather than someone like EA throwing $200m at a game and [perhaps understandably] expecting to milk everyone dry to recoup their investment.

Secret World looks interesting and has a refreshing take on things (modern setting, no classes, no holy trinity, 3 faction PvP). But I recently realised they announced EA will be the publisher, so that's pretty much the end of that then. Another title EA will kill.

Guild Wars 2 has potential. It seems also to be trying to do something different. But I'm not raising my hopes.

[Lasiien]

I agree entirely about EVE, think we've discussed it before. Played it and felt it wasn't for me but have huge respect for the way the designed the endgame and the 'anything goes' player politics. Would like to see something on a larger scale but I guess that is just wishful thinking.

About the holy trinity etc, it's difficult to stop players forming into that kinda role and min/maxing. I think Skyrim did a good single player job on this but still you want to ensure your character is not a total gimp by spreading yourself too thinly, not sure its possible especially in a pvp MMO to truly have freedom of choice (GW1 proved that I think). GW2 should be interesting, it sure looks pretty but i suspect it's more of the same....i.e. illusion of freedom but really, same old, same old.

Anyone got some kinda time machine so that I can go back to starting daoc as my first taste of all this genre ? But hey, if you do please also step back in time and remind me that those points I put in enchantment are all rubbish.....mana is where it's all at! Oh, and remind me also that no matter how much I loved it, a shield spec'd champion (whilst very cool) is a total gimp. Hrmmmm, or did I miss the point, maybe half the fun was those mis-spec's and actually doing what I wanted to do ?

[Cernos]

If I had a time machine I'd tell my first Ranger (who got to 41 before I re-rolled Hero) that he was destined to always be a gimp, even 10 years later, and to commit suicide at level 1

Min-maxxing will always exist because people like to try to optimise their characters. But the trinity needs a rest. There's other ways to organise groups without the need for dedicated tanks, healers and dps. It'll be interesting to see how the upcoming MMOs like GW2 handle it.

I've managed to get ME3's multiplayer working now (by disabling UPnP in Win 7 services if anyone else has problems) and its a lot of fun. If you've not tried it, give it a go. Theres no trinity - no heals (other than limited use medpacs) and no tanks (though of course some classes like solider can take more of a beating in close combat than others) and everyone can dish good dps if they build for it. You have to work as a team or you get overwhelmed, but everyone is responsible for their own well being, using cover mechanics or whatever crowd control or escape tools they have. So it's possible to 'tank' on a squishy class if you play clever with cover and your abilities. Classes seem to mesh together nicely too - I've been playing an adept who can bubble freeze enemies, sniper squadmates love me as it guarantees a headshot

I think they got the influence of gear just right too. You can earn gear upgrades as you progress but they don't turn you into a superhero, the basic gear is viable. Im actually finding ME3 multiplayer far more fun than the multiplayer aspect of SWTOR. Of course there's no PvP and if there was it might become very messy trying to balance it. But for co-op you don't care if the person fighting next to you probably ought to be battered with the nerfbat

[eKo]

If you ever get that time machine working, tell me not to choose a Furbolg please, but go human instead.

As for the holy trinity, City of Heroes has shown it can be done differently by giving some classes debuffs and/or CC that really matters. But since EQ1 you've basically had the tank, healer, dps trinity (though I think it also included a mezzer) and almost every MMO since then has implemented it.

It also feels like the developers push us in speccing a certain way, the previous talent revamp in WoW basically killed hybrids and SWTOR seems to go the same way with patch 1.2. Plus the way talents are set up it's obvious which ones are for PvP & which are for PvE, so there really isn't much choice.

[Cernos]

Yeah it puzzles me why games like Rift and SWTOR etc copy WoW by offering 3 talent trees but then also copy all the mistakes WoW made. Players work out nice hybrid builds that suit their playstyle. Then they nerf it in ways that make hybrid builds impossible by moving key talents out of reach. So you have to focus on one tree, where the narrow range of talents means everyone ends up with the same build. It's just an illusion of choice. I guess it's the easiest way for devs to balance things, but it makes for boring cookie cutter classes.

I'd like to see a system where you you learn / earn extra abilities and talents based on your gameplay. So the more you play in a certain way the more your character evolves in that direction. This way you don't need pre-set classes, players evolve them as they wish by their actions. And as players get proficient in a range of disciplines, it is the gear you wear and carry which determines what you are capable of. So if you want a Mage in Plate (as per Dragon Age) you can try it, but you have to accept the limitations that Plate armour imposes on you. Or else you wear light robes and accept being squishy. Same for swords, shields, 2-handers and so on, you can try dual wielding in plate if you wish, but the limitations might mean you're better off in leather (again, as per DA:O). Warriors being viable as ranged with bows, sure, if they equip and train for it. Let people put together the character they want to be. It would be very hard to min-max in this situation, because you would need to evolve your character and this would take time. It wouldn't be a case of, new patch and time to respec to the latest FOTM build. You would have to work on the new direction you want to take your character.

[Brigh]

Lo All

Like others I've got no plans to go back to WoW and I've also halted my subscription to SWKoTR as my gaming time has dropped so much due to studying in the evening for my next university course.

When I do have time I normally just boot up Skyrim and have a quick 30 minutes on that.

I'm keeping a close eye on Planetside 2 as I really enjoyed the original and I hope they don't alter it to much!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetside_2

Brigh

[Lasiien]

Hey Brigh

Hope the studying is going well ! Forgot about PS2, another game to keep an eye on. Looks like they haven't changed too much, I enjoyed planetside allot as well and sub'd multiple times so be interesting to see how they change things (if at all!).

eko - so you would still pick Warden ? Your ONLY regret is that you were not a pwetty human ?

I tried out ME3 multiplayer on your recommendation Cern and yeah it's fun. Not sure it will ever be more than a quick dip into kinda thing but after a couple of rounds of running around like a headless chicken I got to grips with it. I'm finding it actually to be a cool way to experience other classes - albeit you only get a distilled down version, plus you get access to some archtypes/powers that wouldn't usually combine in the game (trying an asari vanguard atm with statis which was fun, using pistol for headshots!).