"MMO's are for newbies"

[Saxif]

Got this link from the VNboards, interesting read I like the article.  Give it a go if you have a spare 5 mins.

http://forums.3dgamers.com/archive/index.php/t-12090

Sax.

[Darkly]

Yeah, he makes some pretty good points there....

I know my first adventures in EQ pretty much blew me away. Running through a dark forest, completely lost, chased by orcs, and desperately panicking as I didn't want to die and not be able to find my corpse. Stumbling across huge teleport spires, wondering what they were, then seeing a high level party emerge from them clad in shiny armour etc.

I don't think you'll ever quite recapture that feeling, unless the genre really morphs in some revolutionary ways.

[Lasiien]

Whilst I agree that probably everyones first MMO is very special and the game they probably played the most, I disagree with a great deal of this guys arguments to be honest. I think he believes that players are pretty stupid, and don't really like the way he suggests that we all want *bad* features of our *first love* type game in everything else we play.

For DAOC (my first MMO apart from a little dabble in EQ - D&H can testify i didn't last long!) I think we can all agree that we realised many of its sins, and things that I most certainly wouldn't want to see again in any other game (TOA anyone ?). Personally what I think kept me playing the longest were the following:

1. It was a pretty nicely designed MMO, though it actually borrowed a large chunk from EQ (a point i didnt really realise at the time, much like current MMO virgins playing WOW for example).

2. The whole idea of an MMO, and the standard tactics, systems and how they worked was completely new to me. For further games I've played it's not, in fact most i can virtually jump into and play without much figuring out.

3. The community that was formed, and i formed a part of. This is probably the single most thing that's kept me playing MMO's long after i was fairly bored of the content and applies to all of them.

I do think though that there is an issue in that any MMO that tries something new seems to be unsucessful or very niche. It's ture that players come along and demand features from other games they love - DDO is a good example in that many players mostly want WOW features (PvP, Auction Houses, In game mail, etc) and the turbine team seem to have turned that way in order to get new players.

Personally though I think the real problem is the games industry is so conservative at times, simply copying something else with a bit of a twist is often the given the most investment and considered the safest bet. This is not just MMOs, but RTS's, FPS's etc all have the same 'default' features with better gfx or slight twists.

I think any game that has different/new ideas is consider niche and never given a budget or marketing to fully fly, or it is developed by an small industry newcomer with little punch (Savage is a good example here, great game with some real gutsy design, but not high enough budget in terms of marketing to attract a large playerbase. EVE online could be another example, although considered an increidbly good game by reviewers it still does not really have a large amount of subscriptions when compared to some of the bigger names out there).

Also on the point about being conservative, what did WOW really do to make itself so successful? For me it took a whole bunch of elements that made first generation MMO's good, and combined them all brilliantly. It also took lore and design from it's RTS games (probably the most original thing they did as Blizzard managed to get the RTS crowd interested in something different). However, i dont think it really did anything new, which is probably one of the reasons why i didn't play it as long as DAOC. Wow was simply big budget, huge marketing and a decent level of quality, but still conservative.

But anyway i guess i disgress and will get off the soapbox. Just think that guy simplifies things way too much and insults us players. I'm not stupid and do want to see new things/new design, but of course we are gonna also hark back to things that really worked for us in previous games

[Saxif]

I think most gamers r stupid, its the same when you get any mob of ppl together, especially blokes.  The IQ drops on the whole the more ppl you have in a space, i.e mob tactics.  

The same is true with mmorpg's, and the vocal minority those who have overblown opinions of themselves/the way it should be done usually get the things to change that they want because the quiet majority don't wanna rock the boat so developers listen to those who actually have an opinion even if that opinion sucks.

I have read it once, and am not gonna spend time going through it again validating my point by highlighting sections of text that are most poignant so let me say you sir are wrong!!!  

Sax.

[Cernos]

Well I happen to disagree with many of his points. I come from a MUD background too. I was involved right from the early days, programming for one of the first generation of MUDs. MUDs aren't hardcore and MMORPGs softcore, though perhaps nowadays certain MUDs have become a refuge for those who like the hardcore PvP style with corpse looting, perma death and so on. The MUD I helped develop had PvP by consent and it's still running that way too last I looked in, so I disgree that MUDs naturally evolve to a hardcore play style.
 
I also disagree that lots of people would play text MUDs if they were designed well and marketed right. Sorry but no, gaming has moved on. I loved MUDs but I find a well designed graphical MMORPG more immersing because even the best written location description will not have the atmospherics you can create with graphics. I still find myself stopping at times when travelling around WoW and finding new things to marvel at I hadn't noticed before. Used to happen in DAOC too. This just doesn't happen in text. Even with a beautifully described location, once you've read it, you've read it. Text makes for a slow paced game too, as everyone has to stop to read (or not as the case may be) whereas graphics can be taken in and interpreted on the run which makes for a more fluid game,
 
Newbie driven games .... well you need a balance. On the one hand you want to make a fun and challenging game that has long term interest. On the other hand you want to encourage newbies into the game. There's nothing wrong with keeping a game newbie friendly in the early to mid stages, you want to get people engaged with the game not driven off. The key is ramping up the challenge as the players progress. Too many games nowadays take the approach that time sinks is the way to ramp up the challenge, but that's just lazy game design. Designers need to look at other ways to handle the endgame instead of just grinding for loot or a top title above their heads.
 
Perma death ... this absolutely favours early adopters unless you have a game system where newbies have immediate access to the full range of abilities, gear and so on (i.e. there's no levels or advanced loot in the game). Now, a game without levels and xp etc would be interesting (you design your toon before entering the game and see how it fares), it's hard to see the longevity in such a system without a HUGE amount of infrastructure to support non level-based activities and to make the likelihood of perma death reasonably low (otherwise people will just give up).
 
Instancing ... I agree this isn't ideal in a game. However due to the lameness of human behaviour (griefing, ninja looting, kill stealing and so on) it's kind of essential to reduce the incidence of this sort of thing in any game that is quest or objective driven.
 
Much of what drives people from games is A) boredom due to lack of content or objectives suited to your level and/or time available B) feeling left out because those with more time/power in the game are increasingly pulling ahead C) feeling victimised (either by other more powerful players, or the game system itself - nerfs etc).
 
As for your first game prejudicing everything that follows ... perhaps. My first MUD was Discworld .... it was all a slippery slope from there

[Saxif]

Fair one, you make a point about instancing being both good and bad, I think it is more bad than good, some of my best dungeon runs were in Muire seeing ppl legging it cos they aggroed those 3 hags that used to wander to top and 2nd lvl beating lowbies to a pulp was great, it was even better when I went in there at 15th or higher lvl and could help out ppl who had gotten themselves in the shit.  Instanced takes that away, I think few instanced zones should be included and those should only be significant quests involved with the story of the world.

A better way to do it is have semi instanced dungeons (as most worlds have more than the 400 or so we had in Hibernia) much like DNDonline, so when Muire gets to say 25 ppl another copy is created for new ppl, that way it stops dungeons becoming rammed yet keeps the flavour of a mmorpg; of course you'd be able to transfer from one copy to another.

With regards your first game prejudicing everything that follows I am in the fortunate position of having 2 first games, AC1 and DAoC were so different in lvling play styles and end game that there were as close as you get to the N and S of a genre.  One has standard lvl up get more powerful computer assigns stat points and you assign skill points and the other you assigned everything from stats, to hit points, to skills to mana AND then got skill credits and could choose to buy new skills with them as you progressed and then raise them up.  You simply cannot compare them they were so different I played both for about 1.5 yrs, and there is no way features from one would work in the other.  

I do agree with ppl wanting the things they loved (not hated) in thier old mmorpg put into thier new one, I wanted to see "realworld" PvP and the ability to take over enemy towns in WoW and was suprised and dissapointed when I found out you couldn't and that attacking towns was just a waste of time and an easy way to wipe out cos of guard aggro.  I don't think that ppl would want the bad things of thier old mmorpg's incorporated, though I can see ppl leaving games like DAoC cos of the RvR and eliteness that sprung up only to want that put into a new game then leaving that game cos it happened again.

Unfortuneatly the EQ model of mmorpg is what took off so its not likely we'll ever see another AC1 which is a shame as it was a legendary game back in its day.

I tend to agree with alot of what he says though, suprised you folks don't.

Sax.